Curse

Braggi · Mar 14, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

A mesmer redesign/redefinition would be an awful plan. There is nothing wrong with FC. It makes your character harder to interrupt, you can cast more spells in rapid succession (not just spiking but spreading as well). FC IMO does exactly what it should and is one of my favorite primary attributes by far. Also, if you redefine the class, you lose a wonderfully complex and difficult class that really had no major flaws...the flaws are in the design of other things (stat pumping, huge mobs, immense health, others were mentioned above).

That reads like "I'm perfectly all right, it's the world that must change!"

Seriously: I fail to see how my suggestion changes the nature of FC. If anything it would emphasise it, because mesmer could then spread his spells even faster, provided he can manage his energy accordingly. I'd just limit it to mesmer skills, because I'm not really interested in fastcast nukers.

And specialisation of skills IS a problem with new hybrid classes. Further development of the game and new concepts ARE a problem for an old class that is specifically designed to counter.

Avarre · Mar 14, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

In the general PvE storyline, the Mesmer is still an option in my opinion.
Perhaps not always the best, but a mesmer that knows the situation and opponents would benefit the team.

Furtermore, the mesmer could be the 'caller' in many PvE groups.
They need to be aware of the enemies, their roles, positions and skills.
They can also direct the party (or part of it) to a certain enemy and give the team the possibility to finish that one without much danger of other attacking enemies (like team focus on monk and perhaps one other caster, mesmer focus on ele to disable the really damaging skills).

Battlefield awareness is something every player of any character should possess. In PvE, with enemies that don't have developing tactics, the caller can be in any position. Just because a Mesmer is the more 'enemy aware' class skill-wise doesn't mean the other classes don't need to be as aware - if anything, they need to be just as attentive. The Mesmer can call... but so can anyone else. It's not a class-defining role, but a player-defining one. Also, as mentioned, other classes are better capable at target shutdown for the most part - daze (from sins/wars/rangers), spinal shivers, and so on.

Nice to see some intelligent discussion in the Campfire, people.

*Darcy* · Mar 14, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

IMO, the problem with improving mesmer skills is the PvP use of mesmer as a secondary. Any increase in damage-dealing not tied to FC is overused by x/Me's and then nerfed to restore balance.

While I agree that original SP was overpowered, it wouldn't have become such a problem if it hadn't been available to every player with a mesmer secondary.

Perhaps a new FC skill that increases the number of foes affected by a mesmer skill would improve the usefulness of the mesmer in PvE without ruining the PvP balance or turning the mesmer into a "fake" other class.

Or a skill not in the FC line, but that reads "for every 3 points in FC, one adjacent foe is affected." This would mean that only primary mesmers could gain the AoE effect.

Avarre · Mar 14, 2007, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

IMO, the problem with improving mesmer skills is the PvP use of mesmer as a secondary. Any increase in damage-dealing not tied to FC is overused by x/Me's and then nerfed to restore balance.

While I agree that original SP was overpowered, it wouldn't have become such a problem if it hadn't been available to every player with a mesmer secondary.

Are we playing the same game?

SP was used by every Mesmer in the game as a dom spike skill, primarily in 'Euro-Spike' and the 5-mesmer SP spike (as far as PvP was concerned). As a secondary class skill, it wasn't very useful, requiring a high dom spec to justify its use. The ability of Dom mesmers to shut down and spike in such a manner gave them a disproportionate level of power. This resulted in the skill's overuse (along with its close friend, Wastrel's Demise).

Please provide a source of a real build that used SP on an X/Me that made it abuseable?

LightningHell · Mar 14, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

IMO, the problem with improving mesmer skills is the PvP use of mesmer as a secondary. Any increase in damage-dealing not tied to FC is overused by x/Me's and then nerfed to restore balance.

While I agree that original SP was overpowered, it wouldn't have become such a problem if it hadn't been available to every player with a mesmer secondary.

Perhaps a new FC skill that increases the number of foes affected by a mesmer skill would improve the usefulness of the mesmer in PvE without ruining the PvP balance or turning the mesmer into a "fake" other class.

Or a skill not in the FC line, but that reads "for every 3 points in FC, one adjacent foe is affected." This would mean that only primary mesmers could gain the AoE effect.

Let's see what /Me builds there are in GvG.

...

...

Only one I can think of is Mo/Me with Hex Breaker, and that's not common anyway. And it definitely doesn't contain Spiritual Pain.

However, Me/X Domination mesmers were able to abuse the high spikeability of Spiritual Pain.

bungusmaximus · Mar 14, 2007, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Missions where I would love a mesmer around:
-Everything with annoying running healers in it (better then to shut them down then to chase them)
-Everything with rain of terrors in it
-Dasha's Vestibule (Hello stupid djinn, how do you like migraine?)
-Gates of Madness (A mesmer can help PWN shiro really well)
-Gates of pain (Take out important single targets, just the job for a mesmer)
-Ruins of Morah
-FOW (don't know about UW, never tried it...yet)

I wonder if it's really that bad. I think a mesmer is rather PUG unfriendly but that's partially to blame on the limited views people have about PvE. They just want to tank stupid mobs and let eles/barragers/ss necros nuke them. Nice example is Tomb of Primeval Kings or Urgoz Warren. Especially tombs is doable with lot more then just the standard B/P group. Just try to form a balanced PUG there and people will either laugh at you or leave or do both :P
I dragged 5 characters through 3 campaigns and if I want to try out domain of anguish people always treat me like a noob because I don't know the standard cookie cutter build. If they would just tell me what to use I would bring it at once, but 'I don't know all stupid gimmicks so I'm noob'->kick.
Thinking out of the box is just hard for lots of people, that's why copy cat scrubs call good players noobs. There's no art in uking a mob to shreds and move on to the next. I tried stygian veil yesterday but there isn't much 'elite' about that. People use a big gimp with 300+ armor to keep aggro and 4 eles to nuke the mobs to shreds, man I never did anything more tedious. There have to be 3 monks around and as soon as one monster breaks aggro and attacks the bacline those 3 monks can't even prevent the whole team from getting wiped in < 5 sec.
Is that a display of skill? no, Does the build have any versatility? no. It's a big one-trick-pony because people just don't have the finesse to ride a noble steed :P

LouAl · Mar 14, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

That reads like "I'm perfectly all right, it's the world that must change!"

Seriously: I fail to see how my suggestion changes the nature of FC. If anything it would emphasise it, because mesmer could then spread his spells even faster, provided he can manage his energy accordingly. I'd just limit it to mesmer skills, because I'm not really interested in fastcast nukers.

I am right

But really, mesmers already have the ability to increase the recharge of spells (all spells, not just mesmer spells) with Mantra of Recovery, but it comes at the cost of using MoR as your elite skill. My thought is that if you could achieve the same thing by putting your FC attb to 9+ it would be fairly game breaking. Just my opinion obviously (but it is right :P).

[quote=Darcy]IMO, the problem with improving mesmer skills is the PvP use of mesmer as a secondary. Any increase in damage-dealing not tied to FC is overused by x/Me's and then nerfed to restore balance.[quote]

Maybe you are thinking about back when everyone and their dog used Distortion or Mantra of Recall and confusing it with SP, but those issues have been fixed (as in, your don't see many Boon prots with MoRecall or CripShots with Distortion).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Missions where I would love a mesmer around:
-Everything...

Me too

The reality is that having a mesmer on your team for most missions/quests/areas can make it easier, but still not as easy as having another "brute force" type of character. This is totally becuse of the map/mob design and layout

I am pretty much to the point where I think that enthusiasts will play mesmers in PvE and that is about it...Unless Anet does a truely exceptional job with the "hard mode" or subsequent campaigns (ie not stat pumping or just adding more mobs).

the_jos · Mar 14, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Just because a Mesmer is the more 'enemy aware' class skill-wise doesn't mean the other classes don't need to be as aware - if anything, they need to be just as attentive. The Mesmer can call... but so can anyone else.

However, the other professions don't depend as much on the enemy group and skillbar setup as mesmers.
That's why (in general) people playing the mesmer are more enemy aware as people not playing the mesmer at all.
If I play mesmer, I have to think about the skills I take.
Do I take interrupt (power spike, cry) or shutdown (shame, guilt, mistrust).
If I play ranger and the area has some casters, I just equip Broad Head Arrow.
That solves the caster problem...

Playing Ele or Warrior does not require that much thought.
Battlefield awareness?
Don't need it, I just spam SF. Or stance my way through the game while my eles (human/hero/hench) nuke the enemies.
Sure this is not 100% true, but the mesmer is my only profession that changes skillbars with almost each mission (thanks A-net for the templates).
Most of the others have 2 to 4 templates that solve about every situation you can encounter. Perhaps swapping an elite or other skill.

My experience also tells me that from the point of melee attacker, calling is more difficult.
It's easy to give the initial call (seems to target the monk in 99% of the cases) but when the enemy group is large, it's harder to call the next best target.
I've seen the same thing in PvP, where the front line people called the 'wrong' target (closest to them, but they missed the overextending ele runner in GvG, for example).

Sure it's more a playing than a profession role, but some professions are just better at observing battle and stepping into it when needed. And others are just better in just doing heavy damage or control aggro.

This excludes the 'Elite missions' for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Especially tombs is doable with lot more then just the standard B/P group.

You know why tombs is done with B/P?
It's because it's the way to play it reasonably fast without any thinking at all.
Just press 1-1-1-1-1-1.
If you are lucky, you find someone that can pull and interrupt.
Or even res the pet as soon as it spawned a minion.
That saves a lot of time.

The same thing is true for the default W/E/Mo team.
The Mo has to do most thinking (at least, in theory), since some missions require more condition removal and others more hex removal.
But since most teams run 2 monks, they can outheal most hexes and conditions without thinking about removal.

That's the 'other' problem with PvE in general.
For me, PvE means PuG very often (even now I have a new guild).
And PuG means for many people taking builds that require the least thinking.
And the least risk about taking the wrong skills.
So we take 2 W, 2E (or 1E, 1MM) , 2Mo and 2 other.
That is, if wiki does not state otherwise.

You should have heard all the complains when a former guild mate turned out to be half healer/half smiter.
She was playing a lvl 20 monk for bonus in the jungle missions.
Like you need a full level 20 monk there anyway...
We finished easily, but people where not amused (we were).

Seef II · Mar 15, 2007, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Missions where I would love a mesmer around:
-Everything with annoying running healers in it (better then to shut them down then to chase them)
-Everything with rain of terrors in it
-Dasha's Vestibule (Hello stupid djinn, how do you like migraine?)
-Gates of Madness (A mesmer can help PWN shiro really well)
-Gates of pain (Take out important single targets, just the job for a mesmer)
-Ruins of Morah
-FOW (don't know about UW, never tried it...yet)

1. Annoying healers? Sic a physical on them.
2. Rains of Terror = BHA + Epidemic
3. Dasha Vestibule = BHA + Epidemic + Prot Spirit on Goren
4. Gate of Madness = BHA + Epidemic, Spoil Victor + parabond
5. Gate of Pain = BHA + Prot Spirit
6. Ruins of Morah = linebacker warriors
7. FoW = "holy trinity" - or just sic physicals on the monks
8. UW - people actually do quests here, still?

Pray tell how a mesmer would do a Broad Head Arrow + epidemic ranger's job any better - or any other physical in those situations. You can guilt, mistrust, and powerleak one flame djinn, but when there's two...

stueyman2099 · Mar 15, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

IMO, the problem with improving mesmer skills is the PvP use of mesmer as a secondary. Any increase in damage-dealing not tied to FC is overused by x/Me's and then nerfed to restore balance.

While I agree that original SP was overpowered, it wouldn't have become such a problem if it hadn't been available to every player with a mesmer secondary.

You can't fix stupid.

bungusmaximus · Mar 15, 2007, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

Pray tell how a mesmer would do a Broad Head Arrow + epidemic ranger's job any better - or any other physical in those situations. You can guilt, mistrust, and powerleak one flame djinn, but when there's two...

when theres two you take echo :P and isn't epidemic a mesmer skill? But I see your point. All mesmers in the teams I was in had to work twice as hard for the same result as all other toons. They have nasty competition from bow rangers too.

Braggi · Mar 15, 2007, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

But really, mesmers already have the ability to increase the recharge of spells (all spells, not just mesmer spells) with Mantra of Recovery, but it comes at the cost of using MoR as your elite skill. My thought is that if you could achieve the same thing by putting your FC attb to 9+ it would be fairly game breaking. Just my opinion obviously (but it is right :P).

Not the same like MoR; we talk about maximum 1.5 - 2% per point of fc. That way the overall effect is similar to combined wand and focus (36% chance vs max 24-32% reduction or chance, would have to balance values accordingly).

That still means I have to spend energy to cast - so if I need e.g. one interrupt less, I can take another "specialised" counter or an energy management skill. I'm still no killer, but more versatile.

Compare e.g. all mesmer interrupts with savage shot. While savage shot has longer activation, it is spamable with 5 sec reload and ~5 energy cost at decent expertise - and it works agains every skill, with bonus damage on spells. Give me one such mesmer spell...

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Playing Ele or Warrior does not require that much thought.
Battlefield awareness?

I've seen this called the C-space playing style, that way your pizza doesn't get cold while playing

Quote:

So we take 2 W, 2E (or 1E, 1MM) , 2Mo and 2 other.
That is, if wiki does not state otherwise.

rofl, so true.

And I didn't notice any urgent petitions to Anet about the missing mesmer henchie in early nightfall. Let's face it - most people not even noticed...
Pop quiz: when do you get the first mesmer hench in the NF story line?

Utaku · Mar 15, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braggi

Pop quiz: when do you get the first mesmer hench in the NF story line?

Odurra in Champion's Dawn. I take her, she's doing very nicely with cry of frustration and empathy.

Subliminal · Mar 15, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

AI interupts are nasty heh

anyways - i find that i have pretty decent luck with a primarily illusion build (hex heavy) with either dom (for damage) or inspiration (e management) for hex/ench removal and interuptions. Mix in some necro curses (parasitic is an awesome cover hex). Obviously advertising that wont get me in groups, but when i get one i find it pretty sexy

pingu666 · Mar 15, 2007, 10:52 PM // 22:52

they gave a mesmer hench decent skills?:O

Subliminal · Mar 15, 2007, 11:17 PM // 23:17

ya the hero has plenty of interupting skills, but they're controlled by the computer AI, meaning skills and spells that humans couldn't possibly catch get slammed left and right

Normally i let the hero handle the interupts and that leaves me to degen

bungusmaximus · Mar 16, 2007, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

they gave a mesmer hench decent skills?:O

They had Erys Vasburg in Factions with more or less the same skills, never left home without him...

Braggi · Mar 16, 2007, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Your options are...

1. Bring the level of competition closer to PvP standards. This can be achieved by adjusting skills and formations. Obvious balance issues would be adjusting the numbers to accommodate this change.

2. Increase mesmer AoE effectiveness. This has been tested somewhat already and has met with negative results. Prime example being Spiritual Pain. Other methods could be explored however (aoe hexes, more aoe interrupts etc.).

Nr 1 wouldn't help for existing chapters, because rework for this is out of the question. Nr 2 would be nice for some effects.

But I would already be content with less conditions on use and more spammable spells. The key to improve the mesmer class must be FC; otherwise we just take mesmer skills with another main. This discussion is not new.

Every other primary attribute somehow influences the average yield of the classes' main trait. FC doesn't, it just helps to spike or improve some interrupts.
Warrior is special; Str gives a separate general skill group besides tactics and increases damage with attack skills.
Ranger's expertise increases energy yield for attack skills from .75 (compared to a caster) to >1.5
Monk vastly increases healing - there's a reason why people play primary monks, not an EMo...
Elementalist can handle the punishing cost in energy and exhaustion of the most devastating spells.
Necro has superior e-management, the bigger the battle the better.
Assassin crit - more damage, gain energy
Rit - healthier spirits and minions, only good with some builds
Paragon + Dervish - more energy (D health) related to the build's designed play style.

FC doesn't help with the average yield over time, because you gain no energy. Usually in PvE you also don't need to catch really fast spells - overall you want to catch the most devastating or crucial skills, which usually have long cast time (if they reload and/or there are several mobs you're better of with daze spam anyway), so any profession can use a 1/4 interrupt or even rangers' 1/2.

My vision of a mesmer is someone who can cast more often and faster than other caster classes, and who can thwart and cause a lot of damage to single enemies fast according to what they just do (attack, use skills, use signets, ...) or their skill bar. I don't really need aoe shutdown, but to spam them faster on selected targets would make a lot of difference - the mesmer's task is still to take out the most crucial targets or prevent own shutdown or damage.

The faster I can potentially kill a single enemy, the more unbalanced the class will get for PvP though, but I don't play it enough to make a judgement here.
I know there are some monk builds that can handle hexes with ease, removing as fast as any 2 mesmers can cast them, and expel hexes is mesmer elite but unlinked, any caster can use it to spam efficient hex removal. So single hexes can well be countered, even if covered now.
That would logically lead to more mesmer hexes with side effects (compared to necro with more aoe), or single attacks with high conditional damage which a mesmer can loop faster than other casters.

Div · Mar 18, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

That's why most mesmers who want to get into groups go as a fastcast AoE nuker. Just like how most eles are unable to take what they want and have to take a fire nuking build, and how rangers are generally reduced to a barrage or burning build, and how necros are reduced to a MM build for the most part. It's been a problem with PvE builds since the game started, and there's nothing anyone can really do about it since the players will always favor a certain build from a certain class and expect everyone in that class to play that build. I'm sure if you try to go as a water ele, the people will suggest that you change to a fire ele, but that's what's happening to all mesmer builds...

GWaddict · Mar 18, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I see where your coming from on your points, and id say i see those things happening to mesmers all the time. But actually in all my time of playing my trusty mesmer (bout a year) ive never had trouble doing dmg or getting enemy's down or even getting to a group.

Though I do play PvE most of the time and don't spend any time in the elite area's (just don't have hours to spend) ive done well.

Yes i do have the same build from way back when, but when you have something that works why change it? I mean Ineptitude & clumsiness + 2 degen spells works very nicely for me (im not anti-melee, anti-attack! get it right)

The mesmer might be going down, but since im having a good ol time w/ the build thats always worked (Ill tell ya now, i never change my build or armor) and im getting into teams i think ill just continue playing the game. And in time hopefully have enough time to farm (NO...I dont' farm either :P) or own some stuff in elite areas...